After so many years of keeping criminals out of prison by any means necessary, Jimmy McGill ended up behind bars himself. Better Call Saul wrapped up its six seasons on Monday with a big series finale that saw Jimmy/Saul/Jean meet a fitting end: sentenced to 86 years in federal prison for his role in Walter White’s drug empire and all his other illegalities. (Read our full recap here.) He could have gotten away with just seven years in a minimum-security facility (with a golf program!), but hearing that Kim made a full confession to the authorities sparked something inside him and changed his his plea, taking full responsibility for his crimes, along with his role in the deaths of Howard Hamlin and his own brother Chuck, with Kim right there in the courtroom watching. He also returned to the name “Jimmy McGill”, after years of living under a pseudonym.

An incarcerated Jimmy shared one last cigarette with Kim during a prison visit, and we even saw Mike Ehrmandrout, Walter White, and Chuck McGill again via flashbacks. However, we here at TVLine still had questions, so we reached out to Saul co-creator and showrunner Peter Gould — who wrote and directed Monday’s finale — to ask how he and the writers arrived at that ending, what changed Jimmy’s mind and if this qualifies as a “happy ending” for Jimmy and Kim. TVLINE | We know that the overall arc of the series changed a lot while you were working on it and evolved over time. So at what point did you come to this particular ending and what made you decide to go that route? I think it was seasons 4 and 5 that we started to think about where this was all going and we started to have that image of Jimmy behind bars at the end. Because what does he do for a living? He represents criminals. It is the interface between the legal world and the criminal world, and it is part of the machinery of justice, but it is the equipment that does its thing. He is the one who finds the gaps and who tells the lies. And he felt it might be a good idea to be a suspect and ultimately convicted when he’s been dancing outside for so many years. TVLINE | Jimmy confesses everything to Kim right there in the courtroom when he could have gotten away with seven years in a quiet federal prison. Did he see it as the only way to redeem himself and earn Kim’s respect and affection? I think that’s part of it. He wants her there. There’s a lot of ambiguity there, and there’s a lot you could read into it. You might think: Would he have the courage to do what he does if he wasn’t there? You can see, at least the way Bob [Odenkirk] he plays it, he has every intention of going there and confessing, but in a weird way, he’s almost a little proud and defiant at first. And then Kim’s presence, I think, brings him down to earth and makes him more real. Did he do it to redeem himself? I think it breaks a cycle. This is a guy who wants to get away with everything. He likes to make fun of people. He likes to win in debates. He likes to win on the court. He always wants to win. And I think he’s getting away from something that we’ve seen him do time and time again. His behavior this season, especially in the last few episodes, seems like everything was aimed at that result, in a certain way. He’s a bit at war with himself, but then one side wins and comes out clean there in the courtroom. I think what you see with Jimmy, or Saul, is in a cycle where he always seems to react to things the same way. Kim leaves, becomes Saul Goodman. He has this phone call with Kim, this painful phone call while he’s in the phone booth in Nebraska, and she tells him to turn himself in, and how does he react to that? He goes on a crime spree. And even in the middle of a crime spree, he keeps pushing it harder and harder. He seems to be acting out something that maybe he couldn’t put into words. Finally, we felt it was very important for this character to find out: Is he always going to be like this? Is there ever a chance he’ll make a change? And despite the pain in the finale, he makes a big change, which is: He stands in court and tells a large part of the truth. He’s not telling the whole truth. But he is telling a large part of the truth, and certainly the part of the truth that will get him into the most trouble. TVLINE | Jimmy and Kim end up sharing the last cigarette in the prison, which was a great call to the pilot where they lean against the wall together. It may not be a conventional happy ending, but is it perhaps the happiest ending we could hope for given the circumstances? I think so. In my perfect world, for me, great movies — and we aspired to it, I don’t know if we achieved it — but great movies keep driving the story in your mind after the movie is over. Jimmy and Kim are both still alive. They both kick. It looks like he’s found a way to survive behind bars, and it sure looks like he’s back in the law. So, in a weird way, I think it’s a happy ending. In my heart, I always wonder if he will end up serving all of this heavy sentence imposed on him. We’ll see. TVLINE | Well, we won’t see. It is done! Yes, we won’t see! It’s up to us to imagine. I’m used to saying “We’ll see”! I keep doing it! TVLINE | We got one more scene with Chuck McGill and it was great to see Michael McKean again. Was this flashback what would Jimmy really change if he could go back into that time machine: just be a low-profile lawyer in Albuquerque and still bring his brother groceries? Yeah, when we first meet him in the pilot, that’s exactly what he’s doing: Bringing Chuck the groceries every day and begging Chuck to get cash from HHM. Right now, these two guys, their relationship could have changed, maybe. TVLINE | Yeah, and that tied into the other two flashbacks where Jimmy didn’t really have much regret wanting to go back in time and change. Walter White even says, “You’ve always been this way.”[Laughs] Well, Walt is the same way. He just stole a baby and rolled on the floor with his son, and yet his regret is about something that happened to him in graduate school. So I think these guys, in that scene, are both avoiding the elephant in the room… In all three of these flashbacks, you see [Jimmy] avoiding introspection and resisting change. You know, change and introspection is really hard, but if you wait too long, you might end up in a federal penitentiary. Rate the Better Call Saul series finale in our poll, then hit the comments to share any burning questions you still have.